The Apache Software Foundation Blog

Thursday December 09, 2010

The ASF Resigns From the JCP Executive Committee

The Apache Software Foundation has resigned its seat on the Java SE/EE Executive Committee.  Apache has served on the EC for the past 10 years, winning the JCP "Member of the Year" award 4 times, and recently was ratified for another term with support from 95% of the voting community.  Further, the project communities of the ASF, home to Apache Tomcat, Ant, Xerces, Geronimo, Velocity and nearly a 100 mainstay java components have implemented countless JSRs and serve on and contribute to many of the JCPs technical expert groups. 

We'd like to provide some explanation to the community as to why we're taking this significant step.

The recent Java SE 7 vote was the last chance for the JCP EC to demonstrate that the EC has any intent to defend the JCP as an open specification process, and demonstrate that the letter and spirit of the law matter.   To sum up the issues at stake in the vote, we believe that while continuing to fail to uphold their responsibilities under the JSPA, Oracle provided the EC with a Java SE 7 specification request and license that are self-contradictory, severely restrict distribution of independent implementations of the spec, and most importantly, prohibit the distribution of independent open source implementations of the spec.  Oracle has refused to answer any reasonable and responsible questions from the EC regarding these problems.

In the phrase "fail to uphold their responsibilities under the JSPA", we are referring to Oracle's refusal to provide the ASF's Harmony project with a TCK license for Java SE that complies with Oracle's obligations under the JSPA as well as public promises made to the Java community by officers of Sun Microsystems (recently acquired by Oracle.)  This breach of the JSPA was begun by Sun Microsystems in August of 2006 and is a policy that Oracle explicitly continues today.  For more information on this dispute, see our open letter to Sun Microsystems.

This vote was the only real power the Executive Committee has as the governing body of the Java specification ecosystem, and as we indicated previously we were looking for the EC to protect the rights of implementers to the degree they are able, as well as preserve the integrity of the JCP licensing structure by ensuring that JCP specifications are able to be freely implemented and distributed.  We don't believe this is an unreasonable position - it should be noted that the majority of the EC members, including Oracle, have publicly stated that restrictions on distribution such as those found in the Java SE 7 license have no place in the JCP - and two distinguished individual members of the EC, Doug Lea and Tim Peierls, both have resigned in protest over the same issue.

By approving Java SE 7, the EC has failed on both counts : the members of the EC refused to stand up for the rights of implementers, and by accepting Oracle's TCK license terms for Java SE 7, they let the integrity of the JCP's licensing structure be broken.

The Apache Software Foundation concludes that that JCP is not an open specification process - that Java specifications are proprietary technology that must be licensed directly from the spec lead under whatever terms the spec lead chooses; that the commercial concerns of a single entity, Oracle, will continue to seriously interfere with and bias the transparent governance of the ecosystem;  that it is impossible to distribute independent implementations of JSRs under open source licenses such that users are protected from IP litigation by expert group members or the spec lead; and finally, the EC is unwilling or unable to assert the basic power of their role in the JCP governance process.

In short, the EC and the Java Community Process are neither.

To that end, our representative has informed the JCP's Program Management Office of our resignation, effective immediately.  As such, the ASF is removing all official representatives from any and all JSRs. In addition, we will refuse any renewal of our JCP membership and, of course, our EC position.

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I very much regret that circumstances have forced you to this. But I understand the situation. What do you think is the best course of action to follow? Forking java or try to pressure Oracle?

Posted by Abraham Otero on December 09, 2010 at 07:07 PM GMT #

Good bye

Posted by iOasys on December 09, 2010 at 07:07 PM GMT #

I'm very saddened to read this; having such significant respect for your organisation and community as well as being a beneficiary, both directly and indirectly of the talent of the members and generosity of their time to further the ASF code bases of which Java is a significant component, I'm at a loss as to what you're going to do next and how that impacts the wider community. Can you tell us what happens next, now that you will no longer participate in the 'future of Java' as it currently is being devined?

Posted by Ed Daniel on December 09, 2010 at 07:21 PM GMT #


Posted by mmdogan on December 09, 2010 at 07:30 PM GMT #

Okay ! Java's privatized now... What now ?

Posted by Jan Goyvaerts on December 09, 2010 at 07:44 PM GMT #

Thank god I moved off Java in time. Suddenly Oracle is the new Death Star, replacing Microsoft.

Posted by Rodrigo Dellacqua on December 09, 2010 at 07:45 PM GMT #

Seems this is continuing; however no foot step back from Oracle. I am wandering what will be the alternative technologies for Apache group if it is to drop Java.

Posted by Kamal on December 09, 2010 at 07:47 PM GMT #

I am sad to see this come to pass, but I think there are plenty of developers and companies that agree and support the ASF.

Posted by Andrew Feller on December 09, 2010 at 07:49 PM GMT #

Now let us all imagine if everyone followed suit :)

Posted by Sgt. Hat on December 09, 2010 at 07:56 PM GMT #

This is a sad, sad day in the Java community. I hoped that Oracle would back-peddle and realize the folly of their ways. Now Java will be to Oracle what .NET is to Microsoft and it will be the death of Java as we know it. Open source implementations of Java have helped it become one of the most widely used and most powerful languages available and now Oracle is throwing all this down the crapper because Mr. Ellison is a money grubbing, greedy person. Thanks Oracle, you have once again harmed the IT world with your selfish ways. I wonder how long it will be before MySQL becomes closed source or is scrapped all together to push people to buy Oracle... They've already screwed up Open Office, OpenSolaris, and open source implementation of ZFS. Just one more product to tack on the list...

Posted by Chris on December 09, 2010 at 07:58 PM GMT #

Java < Sun < Oracle < Who will aquire Oracle? .............. Good move "Apache".

Posted by Karthi Keyan on December 09, 2010 at 08:02 PM GMT #

Ok, now that Oracle's java is no more community friendly - if it has ever been-, let the chips fall where they may and start to think to build the next big thing that will make java obsolete...

Posted by on December 09, 2010 at 08:03 PM GMT #

Thank you for taking this difficult but principled decision.

Posted by on December 09, 2010 at 08:10 PM GMT #

Time to fork JAVA ??

Posted by Arun B on December 09, 2010 at 08:16 PM GMT #

What does the ASF plan to do now?

Posted by Andrew Goode on December 09, 2010 at 08:34 PM GMT #

I have a clarification question regarding the following: " is impossible to distribute independent implementations of JSRs under open source licenses such that users are protected from IP litigation by expert group members or the spec lead..." What does this mean for other existing or future Apache projects implementing JSRs? Thanks, Jim

Posted by Jim on December 09, 2010 at 08:38 PM GMT #

I think it's a risky position, I hope that Apache will not be affected at this desicion taken.

Posted by Milton J. Ochoa on December 09, 2010 at 08:45 PM GMT #

You have made the right choice. It is intolerable to maintain a role in a collective decision-making body after it makes a decision which goes against everything for which you stand. You will probably get some flak from those who have never been in a similar position who feel that you should have tried to change things from within, but at least you'll be able to live with yourselves.

Posted by Phil Willoughby on December 09, 2010 at 08:55 PM GMT #

I am ashamed to be associated with one of the EC members that voted for the JSRs, under pathetically meek protest. Good luck, gentlemen.

Posted by Anonymous on December 09, 2010 at 09:12 PM GMT #

well deserved for the non-existent JCP.

Posted by Matt on December 09, 2010 at 09:22 PM GMT #

I applaud this move by the ASF and understand how difficult this must have been been for you. I fear that the whole Java community will suffer as a result of Oracle's now familiar stance with the open source community. Do you have any ideas where and what the ASF will do next in regards to this matter? How will the refusal of the TCK licence and the "whether you like it or not Java SE 7 is happening" stance affect how the various dependant project operate? Will there be a schism as there is with Illumos/OpenIndiana? I think we should look at this as a chance to make the right choices and move forward without the encumbrance of a mentality as Oracle has.

Posted by Khushil Dep on December 09, 2010 at 09:28 PM GMT #

Seems very appropriate and in keeping with ASF's core principles.

Posted by on December 09, 2010 at 09:59 PM GMT #

What do you hope would be any positive impact from this decision, whether it be on the real Java community, EC, or the JCP? (I ask this while fully understanding the limited power the ASF has to enact change as an outsider looking in, and while respecting this decision you all have made)

Posted by Seth Call on December 09, 2010 at 10:14 PM GMT #

Wow. That's two down. I wonder if Google will follow?

Posted by nemonik on December 09, 2010 at 10:26 PM GMT #

Good, the JCP was an awful idea from its inception, the idea that open source has to be governed by an external "expert committee" often sworn to secrecy ran counter to the idea of a transparent Meritocracy from the beginning. It is about time.

Posted by Tim O'Brien on December 09, 2010 at 10:46 PM GMT #

I think I've had about enough of Oracle. Let's kill Java. Let's stop using it. Pass the word to all your compadres at your workplaces. Start porting to other platforms. It's time for an absolute embargo of Oracle products. Period. To borrow the words of Mr. Gosling, "On April 2, 2010, Gosling left Sun Microsystems which had recently been acquired by the Oracle Corporation.[1][3] Regarding why he left, Gosling wrote on his blog that "Just about anything I could say that would be accurate and honest would do more harm than good." He has since taken a very critical stance towards Oracle in interviews.

Posted by Time To Tell Oracle they are history on December 09, 2010 at 10:54 PM GMT #

In the process of approving the purchase of Sun by Oracle, the European Commission took a lot of time to analyze the possible consequences for MySql. If I am right, that kind of scrutiny was to performed in regards to Java but that does not mean you cannot do anything. Do you plan to appeal to the European Commission if (when) Oracle starts threatening Harmony and others? They have already sued Google and others will certainly follow. By all accounts, Oracle is trying to prevent the very same interoperability and openness the advocated for in the case of Microsoft, so IMHO they should be subject to the same obligations.

Posted by Pau Garcia i Quiles on December 09, 2010 at 11:07 PM GMT #

Looks like Oracle has no idea of what they are doing. They need to step out of Oracle Parkway office and listen to the world about what the world is thinking. Java by word or by source code is nothing but just bits and bytes. It is million of java developers i should say java lovers who keep this language going. It is not the company that created this language made it successful - it is us the developers did it. Which means without majority of the opinion of us you can't succeed in any of your money making plans. If you do, the best possibility is either it is going to fork a better competition or developers will leave and it will be a ghost down and history will decide. Oracle! - this is your last chance to listen before millions of developers abandon you.

Posted by Rafiq on December 09, 2010 at 11:26 PM GMT #

Maybe that's exactly what Oracle wants: Fork Java and sell some corporate version of it. Nice move apache.. but please, let us know your next one I'm very dependent on it.

Posted by José Leal on December 09, 2010 at 11:39 PM GMT #

Java is not open now , seems it going to die under the leadership of Oracle.

Posted by netroby on December 10, 2010 at 01:00 AM GMT #

Let's hope Google steps up too.

Posted by on December 10, 2010 at 05:30 AM GMT #

Good Move ASF. These Commercial vendors are trying to kill the opensource systems. We are with you. Google, Facebook and all the people who support Open source should step in to move the Java away from Oracle.

Posted by NeilKiran on December 10, 2010 at 06:50 AM GMT #

This is so sad but at the same time ironic for me :) As I am in the middle of getting with grips of J2EE. Having read this, have no motivation to read those 600+ specifications. Right, people, RMS was so right about Sun's Java. He somehow has foreseen coming long time ago. I guess, it would be logical ASF come to GNU people and adopt its values (GPL,etc). I see this as future for java devs, ASF, FSF, Linux & other GPL loving folks. Hope it goes this way :(

Posted by lameruser on December 10, 2010 at 08:06 AM GMT #

long live the spirit that you guys so strongly want to preserve. _it_ is *important*! i'm sure most of the java developers stand by you. i do! you've given us many wonderful things to create other wonderful things. and for that we're indebted! stay strong.

Posted by anirvan on December 10, 2010 at 08:07 AM GMT #

If the opposition would team up and create a fork of Java, I have ZERO doubt the entire Java community would follow. To paraphrase: build it and we will follow. I highly respect Apache for all the great software they make and their commitment to the REAL community and will basically follow them where ever they may go.

Posted by tank on December 10, 2010 at 08:07 AM GMT #

Oracle is throwing away a lot of credibility. Nowdays this is an essential issue for every seriously firm. Well done, ASF!

Posted by Ivan Venuti on December 10, 2010 at 08:23 AM GMT #

Oracle just does a business (?)

Posted by on December 10, 2010 at 08:26 AM GMT #

Java is dead, long live Scala!

Posted by rossputin on December 10, 2010 at 09:05 AM GMT #

Next move proposal: LibreJava under the Apache Software Foundation umbrella with Google, Tim Peierls and millions of Java developers.

Posted by Anonymous on December 10, 2010 at 09:09 AM GMT #

Better that you got out of something that has started rotting. We are with you ASF. Please let us know the way forward.

Posted by Madhu on December 10, 2010 at 09:12 AM GMT #

Begun, the Clone War has..

Posted by Murat Yener on December 10, 2010 at 09:20 AM GMT #

Why not fork Java under another name? If all that is missing is a test suite to verify that a VM is Java-compliant, then just give it another name. Oracle will not be able to compete with this new language.

Posted by Christian on December 10, 2010 at 09:36 AM GMT #

I agree with your decision. In this world where most of the things are moving by the basic economy rule: "more profit". I will continue support organization like this where the rules are to enjoy making good applications, with good quality, useful for the people and most of all in a nice ecosystem to collaborate all of us. Well done.

Posted by Diego Núñez on December 10, 2010 at 09:38 AM GMT #

+1 for ASF. open-source must be a bottom-up process. If the VM can not be 'free' than Java itself is not. If I may introduce a direction, since java/jvm's futur is know unstable/unreliable for open-source. I think you should restructure harmony to become a language agnostic VM like the "parrot vm". Then make a new language or implement something like "Fantom" or "Scala" with high interoperability with java api. This way we could slowly move away from java and port libraries with overtime.

Posted by JSorel on December 10, 2010 at 10:25 AM GMT #

It seems to me that this kind of dispute around Java will permit Ruby (Rails) and Phyton (Django) grow their market share.

Posted by MARCELO CARVALHO FERNANDES on December 10, 2010 at 11:44 AM GMT #

I think this is a fair move from Apache - clearly resigning from a committee that doesn't really exist and has no real power makes perfect sense. HOWEVER - Can we get a statement on what this means for existing Apache Projects, particularly Tomcat which so many of us rely on daily?

Posted by Daniel on December 10, 2010 at 12:31 PM GMT #

Forget Java. Use Scala.

Posted by CPS on December 10, 2010 at 12:38 PM GMT #

As a supporter of the ASF contribution to the Java platform, I can only be sad of the schism. Still, I understand the ASF decision and support their choice toward consistency and integrity. Oracle may be setting priority on centralization, which may be contrary to the evolution. My encouragements to the ASF in order to continue creating added value to the Java platform as pluggable third-party components.

Posted by Jip on December 10, 2010 at 12:54 PM GMT #

A huge earthquake in the opensource world. IMO Apache decision is the right one. I wait for Google move and let's see if I still invest time in Java as an opensource developer. What a shame!

Posted by mandubian on December 10, 2010 at 01:02 PM GMT #

From Venezuela, my deepest feelings of support and thanks.

Posted by Walter Vargas on December 10, 2010 at 01:07 PM GMT #

The die has been cast

Posted by programy on December 10, 2010 at 01:13 PM GMT #

Time to fork Java?

Posted by Suresh on December 10, 2010 at 01:44 PM GMT #

The situation is very sad. Oracle started the begginning of end of Java. +1 for ASF.

Posted by OlegK on December 10, 2010 at 02:19 PM GMT #

This is not good news for Java Developers. Even if ASF came up with an alternative language it will take ages to lift up and Oracle will stop them with a million law suits saying copyright infringment of some sorts used from "its" Java.

Posted by VJ on December 10, 2010 at 02:35 PM GMT #

Now the time forget about java. Move everybody to Scala

Posted by Aarti on December 10, 2010 at 02:38 PM GMT #

How about having a new, really open VM for non-Java languages such as Ruby, Python, Scala, Clojure etc. ?

Posted by Sebastian Kübeck on December 10, 2010 at 03:14 PM GMT #

About time! You know that, when Oracle joins the game they will turn your work into $$$ and sue you for license infringment. Time to move on, there's plenty of bugs still yet to be fixed in the Apache Projects. Hop hop

Posted by Sjaak on December 10, 2010 at 03:21 PM GMT #

What % of the world relies on Apache projects... I'm guessing 90+%? Isn't it urgent to have some process for finding a way forward without Java? This announcement feels tectonically unsettling without a statement about the impact on existing Apache projects.

Posted by Craig Harris on December 10, 2010 at 03:25 PM GMT #

I predicted some time ago, after some personnal analysis, that Java would end up like COBOL, contained in big corporations like banks. Futur's still belong to the C family, Java is just a temporary disturbance. Java took place while the C/C++ community was sleeping. But C/C++ togheter still holds the throne. That's not about to change. Thus, Oracle move doesn't surprise me.

Posted by Stephane Russell on December 10, 2010 at 03:39 PM GMT #

Oracle is trying to do to Java what Microsoft tried to do with the web in the nineties: creepy appropriation. Time to fork, write an Official test suite and become a competitor to Oracle. With a goal of providing an independent, enterprise grade language and build a momentum around it. Yes, that mean not necessarily being 100% compatible. Quite to the contrary, a la Microsoft, differences will be tracked carefully and an "upgrade" guide and process will be carefully maintained. If the name must be changed in the process, well, change it. Never mind. This is a challenge, but if big vendors can be brought into the ship (such as RedHat JBoss or even IBM), then it can perfectly be a winner, like the web was, after all, from Microsoft stranglehold. Companies will then be able to choose whether they want to end up in proprietary jail, or not. A lot choose Java over .Net precisely for that reason.

Posted by Raph on December 10, 2010 at 03:41 PM GMT #

Possibly the first nail in the Java coffin? Let's review the situation again in 5 years.

Posted by 4wardobserver on December 10, 2010 at 03:42 PM GMT #

Well done ASF. We are with you and so are millions of java developers. What is the next step?

Posted by Faisal Feroz on December 10, 2010 at 04:28 PM GMT #

Fork Java, different name, how about "Tea (Party)" then ?;-) As somebody who helped to bring Apache and Eclipse together in various ways, especially with the first Enterprise Plugin (Sysdeo Tomcat Launcher) it is sad to see a bit more disruption and fragmentation. On the other hand vendors like SpringSource/vmware have not only been competing with Java EE or Oracle both technically and even more commercially these days, it also is among vendors who "forked" Tomcat or other Apache servers already adding a bit of their own "magic" calling it TC Server, etc. The ASF allows that, and whatever JVM is used, the license model is quite commercial at least when it comes to service, support and subscriptions. Not so different from a license fee, even more in the new "Cloud" world, where software doesn't belong to you any more and the plug will be put as soon as you stop paying...

Posted by Werner on December 10, 2010 at 05:27 PM GMT #

Thanks to the ASF for the guts and resolution to take this decision and to take it in the open. And also thanks for all the great tools that you made available to the developer community over the years - this is not and will not be forgotten. The hard question IMHO is how to move forward. Do I want to go back to C++? No. Do I want to join the second best hell, .Net? No. I would seriously consider Scala, but Scala also relies on the VM, so there are more ties that Oracle could pull. What do you think? Best regards from Germany, Henrik Klagges

Posted by Henrik Klagges on December 10, 2010 at 05:30 PM GMT #

This is a big dent in trying to bring Java to open source. Oracle has its own interests here rather that Java community.

Posted by Skill-Guru on December 10, 2010 at 05:31 PM GMT #

One more for ASF. Oracle is spitting in it's food plate, it is about time we move to a new language build by the community.

Posted by Leonardo Postacchini on December 10, 2010 at 05:33 PM GMT #

but you guys - your foundation will be still using java? you should have chosen C from at the beginning.

Posted by Tom on December 10, 2010 at 05:54 PM GMT #

Thanks Apache for standing up. I've been teaching Java at the University since 1994. I loved it because it was clean an free. But now, I think next semester I'll swap to another language. Scala is a good candidate.

Posted by Marco Ronchetti on December 10, 2010 at 06:05 PM GMT #

[Trackback] Conforme esperado costa:/2010/12/07/JDK 7, JDK 8, Coin e Lambda aprovados pelo JCP, a Apache Software Foundation abandonou o JCP The Apache Software Foundation has&nbsp;resigned its seat

Posted by Confluence: André Costa on December 10, 2010 at 06:23 PM GMT #

I am very sorry to see Apache leave the JCP. The EE/SE EC is running out of people. It is time for Oracle to finish the job and take Java fully private and to take on all the investment that the developer communities expect from a platform owner. Time to give back to the community that made Java grow, and to do it on your own. Good luck navigating the consumer app and services world. This is not the enterprise space boys. The only way to win the hearts, minds, investment, and code skills of the developer community is to show that how you will fill their wallets. Sun categorically failed at that, hopefully you are not listening to them. Good luck.

Posted by on December 10, 2010 at 07:16 PM GMT #

Recently Oracle sued Google about Java. Dalvik uses Harmony I guess, ASF and Google together really have the power to fork Java, at least for mobile devices like smartphones and tablets. Then support from IDEs (Eclipse?) and languages like Groovy/Scala/ObjectTeams hopefully would be gained. Why not ?

Posted by Arioch on December 10, 2010 at 10:37 PM GMT #

Good luck Apache... I hope better sense will prevail in other members of EC... Java belongs to the community and should be vendor neutral... I am with you guys for taking a stand... its time to throw a boot at oracle

Posted by kamran on December 10, 2010 at 10:57 PM GMT #

I applause, i'm not a java developer but i use MySQL and Apache every day, what Oracle is doing with Java let's as guess what's coming for MySQL. Time to move to postgresql, and keep the open source running. Microsoft as realized that the Open source community is here to stay and is slowly changing its ways, and becoming more community friendly, is sad to see Oracle doing the exact opposite. ASF keep fighting for the open source community we are with you guys. WELL DONE.

Posted by Miguel Pinto on December 11, 2010 at 01:09 AM GMT #

I fully agree with ASF. That is the best course of action you have taken. Java will be now a product of monopoly .This is the worst thing oracle has done , blocking creativity , enthuasiasm of billions of people world arround. We are with you ASF, Good luck.

Posted by Tarini Kanta on December 11, 2010 at 06:02 AM GMT #

It has been a long time that ASF was driving it but now we see a lots of things that are churning around JAVA which is currently in a state of unstable lets wait and watch where it floats too .... Lastly would like to say a Great thanks for ASF for there Great work!!!!!!

Posted by Sid on December 11, 2010 at 06:09 AM GMT #

Hi everyone out there! Congrats to great developers working under the ASF umbrella. I have used JServ, Tomcat, Ant, Maven and many more from you. Thank you for standing up to the open source principles. About another language. May I suggest Go(lang) developed by Ken Thompson (Unix) and many other great developers at Google. I have been doing some server side development with Go and I promise you that it is a great language with a growing library. Perfect for server side "Enterprise" type projects. Best Regards and thanks one more. /bjorn

Posted by Bjor Sveinbjornsson on December 11, 2010 at 10:44 AM GMT #

Maybe Oracle has realized that Java is slowly heading towards passive existence. It has reached its peak, from here it's downwards, in which case it needs to be protected just for existence rather than growth. Oracle is building a safe old age home for it, which is something Sun could not afford. Lets hope ASF is able to convince it's members to contribute in projects like the experimental google go (golang), the amount of time spent re-writing the wheel (Harmony) would be better spent trying to create a fisrt in go. Contribute their Harmony ideas to the in dev real-time garbage collector for go. PS: The future is comming fast and unlike other VM's the JVM can not keep up.

Posted by Siya on December 11, 2010 at 11:06 AM GMT #

This is a quotation from an interview from 2004 with Thomas Kurian, the Executive Vice-President of Product Development at Oracle, which might even mean he is responsible for product development. "Some of the vendors," he says, "try to kill the golden goose, altering the very thing that made their products successful - open standards - by trying to take control of these standards in a proprietary way." The only way to stop Oracle's hypocritical behaviour is to hit them where it hurts. If you work in a large enterprise, and you can influence purchasing decisions, stop buying Oracle products.

Posted by Neelkanta on December 11, 2010 at 12:15 PM GMT #

Waiting for Google's move now. Oracle, fasten your belts for the downward ride. Hats off to ASF for their principled stand. For whatever its worth, you have my best wishes.

Posted by Sandeep Deb on December 12, 2010 at 10:38 AM GMT #

I vote for ASF, I vote for open Java and its future! ... doubt that Oracle will change its style of governance. It'll do its best to earn more money from Java platform and take more control. And for Oracle does not matter whether it's open source or not. It does for me!

Posted by Alexander Arakelyan on December 12, 2010 at 01:07 PM GMT #

Java is the past. There are better languages for the JVM these days --clojure, scala. The future is functional and JSR 335 is "too little, too late". No harm done here Apache.

Posted by David Smith on December 12, 2010 at 04:38 PM GMT #

Take a look at Unity 3d - It's currently being marketed as a game engine, but it is capable of so much more. It's built around Mono (a .net clone) and uses C# and other .net programming languages.

Posted by Robert Kent on December 12, 2010 at 05:22 PM GMT #

Posibly in few years we'll see Apache as a new Sun for "Java", followed by Eclipse, Google, etc... I hope this is a great movement done by Apache for the community. We'll see... The objetive of Oracle are Enterprises that cannot move from Java because of hight investments, it will earn a lot of money from them. Oracle ignores the community because is not going to pay for (expensive, as all the rest of Oracle products) licenses... We'll se...

Posted by AJSP on December 12, 2010 at 08:25 PM GMT #

@David Smith: Closure or Scala all work on the JVM... Without the java platform, they would not exist....

Posted by Herve Girod on December 12, 2010 at 08:47 PM GMT #

@Herve Girod: Yes, I am aware. The JVM is a solid platform, and my comment was a little flip. With the current leadership on the EC, I am concerned for the entire process, but I would not lament the slow demise of the Language. As for the runtime, I think the platform is a little more durable. I wouldn't mind seeing tail-call optimization added though.

Posted by David Smith on December 12, 2010 at 11:15 PM GMT #

@Miguel Pinto If MySQL would be dead (but why ? u can always fork GPL edition at least), then moving to PostgreSQL looks like making monopoly, that is not nivce even in OpenSource world. I guess more attention is to be given to Firebird, that can take some niche from both PostgreSQL and SQLite Or maybe Fyracle, if it is still alive :-)

Posted by Arioch on December 13, 2010 at 01:10 PM GMT #

@BoD once ago there was a patent war against Linux, and where is it now ? 1) there are countries with more modern law, that disallows software patents. 2) patents violation might be denied by court 3) free Java implementations could probably be edited to work around patents. At least that's what Notion Ink said. The gamble is would hypothetical forked-Java seek for compatibility with Oracle Java (and face patents) or vice versa.

Posted by Arioch on December 13, 2010 at 01:14 PM GMT #

@Herve Girod: once ago Scala worked on .Net in worst case, it can be revived however on .NET there is Nemerle and Scala makes little sense there.

Posted by Arioch on December 13, 2010 at 01:18 PM GMT #

@David Smith: There is a proverb. When my house is on fire, someone came and asked for fire to lit his cigarette. Your comment is like that

Posted by Srikanth on December 13, 2010 at 01:31 PM GMT #

I heard Oracle officials said usual "Peace, dudes! Come back and let work together on technical things, screw all that politics" and trying to make Apache look like childish geeks making fuss about nothing. I guess, Apache's words and publicity should stress points like "Oracle failed to fulfill their contracts during a year now. They also failed to tell about their reasons to do so. They also failed to communicate to change their contract. Apache would not work through all their contract obligations when their partner does not make its part of contract in return. Oracle can not be treated reliable business partner and Apache cannot work with unreliable ones." In official statements wording is to be corrected, but the sense is to remain. In unofficial leaks from non-top persons, the wording can be harsh. But the stress is not to be on "unreliable Oracle can not fulfill its contract duties"

Posted by Arioch on December 13, 2010 at 09:29 PM GMT #

All tech persons already know what the fuss is all about and make their positions. You need not to explain issues to them. Now the question is what non-tech persons would think and would they know. And those ones do not care a thing about what is JSPA, what are 3 freedoms, and who would ever need all this. However words like "contract" and "reliable business partner" would sound native language to them. And make attract their interest. I wish no one could picture Apache as red-eyed crazy Linux punks in hysteria, but rather a serious business company, who parted with unreliable ex-partner.

Posted by Arioch on December 13, 2010 at 09:31 PM GMT #

Let's just settle this like Dwight Eisenhower on D-Day when Americans united for the largest amphibious assault in the history of the world against the Nazi's. It can definitely be construed that Ellison thinks money rules the world. So, let's ask the Judge to referee an old style trial by combat (it's still legal in America) Winner take all. If he wins -- he can have a language all to himself. If we win, we can have a language all to ourselves. The lawyers will pussy out on this. The legal system will drag this out forever. A few hours (or less) of real judicially sanctioned combat will end it in a few minutes. Sharpen your swords, boys -- not your tongues. It's time to settle this like free men; not masters and slaves. Maybe Mount Rushmore National Park would be happy to host it during the SuperBowl half-time show? :)

Posted by Trial By Combat on December 14, 2010 at 01:24 AM GMT #

"I very much regret that circumstances have forced you to this. But I understand the situation. What do you think is the best course of action to follow? Forking java or try to pressure Oracle?" Forking means chaos and death, i love Java, I love Apache, i don't want to see it breaking up.

Posted by on December 14, 2010 at 03:36 AM GMT #

What I think is we have talents here in Apache , porting all the existing project to the next language will not be a problem, so why not just kill Java and start a new language !

Posted by Glenn on December 15, 2010 at 07:20 AM GMT #

This is so sad, and very sad indeed. What does it mean for businesses who so rely both on Java and Apache? What is the way forward? I wonder what RMS thinks about this [probably an I told you so]?

Posted by Codus on December 15, 2010 at 11:45 AM GMT #

Apache has been very brave and have been faithful to their ideals. I think it's time for a fork of Java. This fork could modernize and improve the original Java. "Apache if you sing we will be your chorus."

Posted by Jesus Sayar on December 15, 2010 at 02:38 PM GMT #

It's time for the community to make a new JVM-like technology based on the clean design elements of Java, and at the same time discard all the shortcomings! Cut the JRE to under 5MB! Redesign Swing! Get rid of Cloneable and Serializable!

Posted by jyluo on December 15, 2010 at 03:29 PM GMT #

@Glenn First, do port Second, do debug (and you would need to debug new VMs and new libraries as well, not only your own code). Only then say "kill"

Posted by Arioch on December 16, 2010 at 02:35 AM GMT #

It seems it's the time to head up to new directions. The end of Java days has ended. Long live to the Community!

Posted by Fred on December 16, 2010 at 02:26 PM GMT #

When JAVA first appeared, it reminded me of the failed attempts at running emulators on mainframes. A Virtual Machine is nothing more than an emulator - a P code generator/interpreter. I thought it was a bad idea and didn't buy into the "write once - run anywhere" mantra. That was many years ago, and since then the VM has been the weak link all along. JAVA as a programming language is wonderful. Being forced to run it on a VM is the problem. Get rid of the VM. Keep the language, but compile the code and produce real object modules. Face it - there are only a few chip platforms around worth worrying about. Compile for them as necessary and get rid of that problematic VM.

Posted by Bill Gradwohl on December 16, 2010 at 04:29 PM GMT #

ASF, go Ruby!

Posted by Adilson Chacon on December 17, 2010 at 10:44 AM GMT #

may be make some new programming language. Random oriented programming(source code can reorganize itself). node oriented programming concentrating on data structure's visibility. pointer wrapper arithmetics. reverse oriented programmings and so forth.. java really lacked function pointers/pointers as pointers are real address locations based on which to build a language..

Posted by hari ks on December 17, 2010 at 05:32 PM GMT #

Oracle made a VERY stupid move letting the ASF out by making. They have no idea what damage will occur if the ASF doesn't come back or if java becomes non-open. This is a black day in java history !

Posted by Mohamed on December 19, 2010 at 01:38 PM GMT #

I am not too sure I understand the problem. Is it with the use of language or "the other bits"? As long as one can use the language, it is "only" a matter of opening an ASF VM project and an ASF compiler project. I am not an expert, but how far from a VM is the APR for instance? As a Java developer and an Apache worshipper, I'd be happy to through a grand to each project. If only a million of us do that, that's a heck of a development budget (enough to hire-back the Oracle engineers? :-) )

Posted by Ma'Per on December 20, 2010 at 10:21 PM GMT #

I try to defend Oracle in a way and could still understand why there are doing this. But if you ask me what I see: I'd say I see Oracle opening up java in to way - Commercial and Proprietary. These would have two different licenses. It is a precarious time for Oracle to yeild to Apache at this time. They would want to think a sway to Apache's demand would wane their suit against Google and of course, they want all the money from Android they could possibly make. For other alternatives like scala, I don't believe they are yet in close to java in scale. They may in years to come but for now, java is head above shoulder any of its competitors. See Apache coming back.... then we can all have our java totally open.

Posted by Michael E.C. on December 21, 2010 at 07:40 AM GMT #

IMHO ASF should go forward with Harmony. If ASF can show that they keep their implementation really open, followers will come anyway. The fact that in the end Harmony might not be completely compatible with Oracle Java, is just a simple fact of life. This has happened with a lot of other programming languages as well. E.g. I am currently working with HP Pascal on OpenVMS. Not exactly Standard Pascal like Wirth developed. When inserting standard code, it just requires al little tweaking here and there. In case of the ASF projects, I would say: as long as all ASF projects run on Harmony all is right.

Posted by Peter on December 22, 2010 at 02:23 PM GMT #

By all means, I'm a huge fan of Apache...and I'm a bit afraid to say what's in my mind. Let's take few steps back and few deep breaths... Java from Day 1 has been "closed". While many JSR has been released, Java was still "closed". I don't think Sun was making much money from JDK. Also, I always use Sun's Java JDK and never complained. I never heard of Harmony until today but I do see the point Apache is trying to portray that Java is always Open. But from Day 1, it has been closed. Seriously, give credit to Sun for inventing Java and let them have the ownership to the JDK. I am so grateful that Apache providing beautiful JSR implementations for free :). You have so much room to roam free and run wild... Why are you keep knocking on the door who provided the tools necessary to build your environment? I wish ASF would stayed longer w/ the JCP... if Oracle crosses boundary outside the JDK...then I'll condemn the oracle to hell... hahaha~ merry xmas!

Posted by sg707 on December 22, 2010 at 03:47 PM GMT #

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